The shops I go to let me watch them install, so I can give them the beef when they screw up. Normally it's not allowed, but it doesn't seem to matter to the installer.

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Look! My stuff is for sale!

Ideally, I would like to work on my intall WITH an installer...the same way that I work with an architect building my house...yes, I can watch while he draws up the plans...obviously, not the entire time, but it is a consultative process...I ask him, what about this? let's try this...what about that? Unfortunately, too many installers (again, NOT ALL) are too arrogant to work collaboratively...if anyone in the Toronto area is interested in gaining a new install customer and wants to work WITH me...let me know.

FB

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Alpine 9811/S620 w/ Optical Out<br />Alpine PXA-H700<br />Rockford Fosgate 750x<br />Rockford Fosgate bd1500<br />Image Dynamics CD2 HCLDs<br />Image Dynamics CX6 6.5s<br />Image Dynamics IDQ12 2-ohm DVC v.2 12s

dwvw: LOL, some pretty messed up wiring. That picture of the 6x8 opening with the 6.5 speaker in it looked just like my friend's civic doors.

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2000 Acura 1.6EL Premium<br />IASCA SQ Competitor - Street Smart 1-600W<br />Sound Domain Page: <a href="http://members.sounddomain.com/turbolemon" target="_blank">Mike's Acura</a>

first time i got stuff installed at a shop i ran into the same s**t

roughly 500 later and i had my subs in a box that was bare wood, my co-axials in cut doorpanels...which began to fall out promptly a few months later

and an amp that was supposed to be bolted to the box sliding around behind the false wall in my trunk...which coincidentally was carpeted, UNLIKE the box that I paid to have carpeted, supposedly...

what did i learn? f*ck the installers' feelings, stand over his shoulders all you want....a decent installer shouldnt have a problem with it, and maybe will be good enough to show you a few things while he/she is at it

i stood 'over the shoulder' of the installer when he worked on latest car, and all three times the guy(s) were quite cool with it......i even was able to help them out with some of the work

if a shop, especially one that is 'reputable' , wont let you stick around and see whats being done to your vehicle, go somewhere else....

personally, I have seen enough shops which allow 6 or 8 of the employees' buddies to hang around in the bays, so why not a paying customer

my 2 cents

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94 Impala SS

Installers won't let you hang over there shoulder for 2 reasons. 1, it's f'n annoying. (see how an architecht will like it if you ask to sit in his office while he works on your plans)
2, shop insurance usualy requires that no one other than installers be in the shop.

Also, the statement that most installers are hacks is bs. You've dealt with 15 installers in 20 years and you think that makes you an expert? How many installers are currently employed in Canada? Prob. over a 1000. As far as proving them NOT to be hacks, have you looked at some of the work done by the guys on this forum? We have some very talented and proffesional installers in our presence and I'm sure it pisses them off to no end to read an ignorant blanket statement like that.

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Fishin' for bass

Cujo...

It's my opinion...it's based on my experiences...as I said, I would love to be proven wrong...

I don't know why good installers would be pissed at my blanket statement...I am only referring to the bad ones...I agree that there are good installers out there, I just haven't been able to find them. The goods ones should relish in the fact that they are good. However, they should also be concerned that people like myself have such an opinion about installers...those "hacks" are bringing down the entire profession...I am not saying that every installer is a hack by any stretch, however, my experiences have led me to hold a BELIEF...

With respect to the argument about "watching an installer"...the insurance argument only holds water if in fact the shop ABIDES by that policy ALL of the time...not one shop I have every dealt with has abided wholly by that policy...they have only ever used it as an excuse to keep certain people out of the shop at certain times...if its a policy, then it should be a policy for everybody, all the time...

Finally, with respect to the architect, I pay him a HELLUVA of a lot more money than I pay an installer and, while I am not with him through the entire drafting process, I have spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time working WITH him...

Note to the GOOD installers...keep up the good work...maybe I will find you one day.

FB

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Alpine 9811/S620 w/ Optical Out<br />Alpine PXA-H700<br />Rockford Fosgate 750x<br />Rockford Fosgate bd1500<br />Image Dynamics CD2 HCLDs<br />Image Dynamics CX6 6.5s<br />Image Dynamics IDQ12 2-ohm DVC v.2 12s

Fish, I don't take it personal but let me explain how things work around here.
1. for a basic deck install or speaker install etc. you should be able to trust your installer will do a good job, I could train anyone to do these kinds of jobs. If you can't trust them get an installer that is recomended through car audio boards like this one or competition circles, you are much more likely to get someone competent.

2. If there are people hanging out and socializing in the bay, that bay is not professional and should be avoided. Be careful not to confuse a customer yapping casually with an installer for a friend though, because when people find out you do good work everyone wants to be your friend (for the "discounts" they think friends get).

3. The shop should be tidy and well organized, it's okay to have a days worth of debris on the floor by the middle of the day, but if nobody cleans up at the end of everyday they aren't very professional.

4. It's okay to stop in for a maximum of about ten minutes per day if you are having custom work done. Ask a few questions if you want. If you don't have enough trust in the installer to let them do the job unsupervised you shouldn't be getting custom work done. Get expectations and price in writing and be specific. One persons idea of kickpanels with grilles can be $250 and a day later while anothers is $800 and two weeks later.

5 The comparison between the architect is a good one but realize that the installer is not only the architect AND the general contractor. You should spend alot of the time before the install setting out clear expectations and feeding ideas off each other, but when it comes to construction time, let the builders do there job, not saying don't check up, but keep the visits short and not five a day.

6 I realize that many people have had a bad experience with a "professional" installer, there is not much good installers can do about it because the industry is not regulated and installers are not known for their ability to get organized into trade certification etc. Heck some of the best installers could be very unprofessional and do great work but still smoke and eat in the customer cars. It's really to bad that in big cities installrs can be crappy but stay in the business because of the sheer volume of new customers.

sorry for the long winded post

Dereck...I agree with everything you said...

FB

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Alpine 9811/S620 w/ Optical Out<br />Alpine PXA-H700<br />Rockford Fosgate 750x<br />Rockford Fosgate bd1500<br />Image Dynamics CD2 HCLDs<br />Image Dynamics CX6 6.5s<br />Image Dynamics IDQ12 2-ohm DVC v.2 12s

This is an interesting topic.

Personally, I really don't care if you watch me work but in MY experience when I DO let someone watch they inevitably:
a) Ask me a zillion questions about what I am doing and why. It takes time to answer questions and it interrupts the mental flow as you plan the next steps of the install. Any standard job like a deck, speakers, or amp install is done at a flat rate so the longer I take answering your questions, the less I make. Do not make the assumtion that if a deck install is $45 and custom labour is $50/hr that you have me 'paid for' for 54 mins. It does not work that way.
b) Become uncomfortable or agitated when something must be 'finessed' into or out of the car. Yes folks, sometimes you just gotta use force and sometimes it isn't pretty.
c) Want to get too close. Ok now - I'm already uncomfortable because someone is standing over me (how would you like me to scrutinize YOUR work even though I may have NO clue what you are doing) but then they hop in the car or I back out and run into them. It is frustrating. I work in the back and not the front because while I can tolerate customer contact, I do not crave it...

There are a couple of local shops that had windows in the bay near the waiting area so people could watch from a distance if they wanted to. I could easily work in this situation. Watch me fine but please do not interrupt me [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just my observations over the last 15 years.

Fish - I'm sorry all you have found are money makers. Hopefully your search will turn up someone who installs because they like it and has pride in their work. I cannot believe what that shop pulled. Out here the install community is pretty tight knit. While you may not know everyone you can bet that, if you wired a pair of woofers that way and any other guy pulled them out of the box and saw that mess, within a couple days you'd hear about it...

DWVW and Dukk got it pinned! I'm very sad to hear that in all of your "experiance" of paying for work has been so unsatisfactory for you, but from anything I've learned, ppl that are paying to have a deck installed, dont know anything about car audio, cuz if they did, they wouldn't pay the $45, but these ppl will come into your bay and tell you how they know it all. Some customers think they're experts 'cuz they bought some equipment, or read a few mags. They're not! Most of us have been doing this for years, (if not all our lives!) and if we havent, we were trained to do so in a nationaly accredited training course (none of which are less than 1 month in duration) and train new installers about things that you would have never dreamed would be involved in car audio.

I find when the work is done unsatisfactory to the customer, it is often because the consumer didn't want to pay the duckets the shop wanted for the work, so rather than loosing a sale, the shop will drop the quality of the work, (but usually after talking with the customer about this first)to be more in the customers "price range" or what he/she wants to pay, and then, they complain and trash talk on forums (not that you did this, this is MY EXPERIANCE!)

Look, everyone wants custom work done to their car or truck, but NOBODY wants to pay for it, thats why some jobs get done half-a$$ed, and when you wanna pay for a job done right, then thats what usualy happens, but, it costs money! Shop owners are buissnes men, and aren't into giving away time or talent or product! I dont know anybody with a full custom job that wasn't happy. Thats usually the only time where a customer would have any input on whats going on, not to stand there and say "oh, thats where your gonna put the wire?" or "I was thinking more like....." its like when your trying to do somthing, and the neighborhood kid is going "whats this?...whats that do?.....how does that work?.....why's that there?...." you get the idea